Do all of the puzzles belong in this category - why or why not? How do these things differ from memorial statuary, or other objects and things associated with mourning? What is the role of objects (as opposed to ritual) in the process of grief, mourning and remembering? How might you think of these ideas in relation to the Winter's Tale?
Feel free to talk about certain puzzles that were difficult to figure out, or any that you are still unable to figure out. Try and talk to each other, don't just post something completely unrelated to the conversation! Thanks guys, you're the best group ever!
I want you guys to win the 5 extra points, has anybody found the YouTube video that shows any scene taking place as part of an annual fall parade in downtown Tucson that memorializes the dead??
ReplyDeleteWell I am not exactly sure what "any scene" means, but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udgKxFjP6EI shows, at time 0:10/5:21 a woman dressed up as a "catrina" Just a thought...
ReplyDeleteMiles I think you found it! I'll submit that to the Institute Website!
ReplyDeleteOkay I can't post it on the Institute website yet because they want everyone else to have the chance to get it, but you guys will be receiving 5 extra points, so thank Miles!
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone have anything to say about the discussion questions I posted?
Hahaha... Wow, i just googled the phrase that was on the website and that was the first result... Anyway, about the questions, I feel like number 3 really doesn't belong to this theme of death that most of the questions are referring to. I thought that number 3 was talking about like a fur coat or something like that, so i guess i could be wrong, but i still feel like it doesn't belong.
ReplyDeleteI thought number 3 was feathers cause I read some where that Queen Victoria liked ostrich feathers. But feathers aren't really hair...so it's a fur coat? I cannot figure out number 1.
ReplyDeleteI know that number one is talking about Camille Saint-Saens' symphonic poem Danse Macabre, and you can listen to it on youtube.
ReplyDeleteAnd plus, I don't know it means anything, but when Queen Victoria died, she was buried with a piece of her manservant/alleged romantic partner's hair. His name was John Brown and that's how she got the nickname Mrs. Brown. If the lock of hair she was buried with is what the clue is referring to, I think it fits with the theme of memory and mourning.
This is Shelby by the way, I don't know why it keeps putting my aim sn as my posting name...I changed it on the profile >.>
ReplyDeleteOh, that totally makes sense- i think that is the answer to that question. I remember reading somewhere that she liked wearing mink coats, so i assumed that it was a fur coat... But that seems to go with the theme much better.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if this is exactly what we were supposed to be looking for for number two, but this is what i found:
ReplyDeleteJean d'Alluye was a knight of Philip Augustus and one of the principal nobles of the Loire Valley. His career included a trip to the Holy Land, where he acquired a relic of the True Cross. In 1248 he was entombed at La Clarté-Dieu, the abbey near Tours that he had founded in 1239. This effigy, in an attitude of prayer, was turned upside down and used as a bridge over a nearby stream. Around 1900 it was purchased from a Paris dealer by George Grey Barnard, an American whose collection forms the core of The Cloisters
Also, for number 4, Catrina was a mexican print often used for Day of the Dead popularized originally by José Guadalupe Posada but then revived by Jean Charlot shortly after the Mexican Revolution in the 1920's
ReplyDeleteWell, I am curious about #5 (If I am right in assuming that the clue points toward this sculptor named Song Dong). He built this huge sculpture made out of a bunch of old things that were otherwise going to be thrown out. This sculpture, in my opinion, it doesn't really focus upon death or the remembrance of people in the sense that the other clues do. Therefore, perhaps the overall theme of the assignment is meant to address the transient nature of everybody and everything. (Including old shoes and pans) It obviously is really closely related to death though.
ReplyDeleteI am curious about your guys' discussion regarding question 3. I did all of these puzzles before even creating this blog so that I would have my own contribution to the discussion and what I found for #3 was completely different than what you've all discussed. I got that she wore a lock of her husband's hair in her pieces of jewelry after his death in 1861. This lead to the development of hair jewelry. She kept his hair on her as a kind of mourning/remembrance, which I think you guys have determined that this is the theme of these puzzles.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you guys think about that? I could be wrong...I don't have the correct answers either!
Ryan: I was kind of curious about #5 as well... I got that it was a prerequisite for survival, trying to keep things alive, that otherwise should've been left to "die." But I don't really see the direct correlation either. I like your theory on the theme being the transient nature of everybody/thing.
The one that I'm having the most trouble seeing the correlation to death is #7...I might have not researched it very well, but is it referring to silhouettes?
Good job to everyone that's posting, I hope that you guys think this blog is working out okay!
2 other things:
ReplyDelete1. Can anyone tell me where you guys found these puzzles on the Institute website? I got a copy from my instructor so I never had to go find it online and I know a couple people from our group haven't been able to locate it and for some odd reason neither have I.
2. Did you guys figure out the name for the kind of "memorial" that reminds us of our mortality?
I thought that 3 was jewelry. I read online that that was the big fad back then, to wear jewelry made out of hair. ( i don't know why they thought it was anything but gross), that is the only answer i found for it, but it could be wrong.
ReplyDeleteGretchen: I think I definitely can explain #7. Philippe Derome was an artist who brought back the art form of Vanitas. Vanitas is a type of painting that generally includes a human skull or skeleton. These paintings are very dark and somber, but are meant to remind people of the insignificance of life on earth and the inevitability of death itself. Hence, they tie in very closely into the theme we have already identified. Just do an image search on “Vanitas” and prepare to have your mind blown!
ReplyDelete(8) So from what I can find, a philatory is some sort of religious artifact. An example of this might be something like the Holy Grail. It seems like a monstrance is some specific type of philatory. Has anyone found anything about these?
ReplyDeleteA monstrance is the vessel used in the Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Anglican, and most Lutheran Churches to display the consecrated Eucharistic Host, during Eucharistic adoration or Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. So I guess it used to be any religious relic but is now used just for the Host?
ReplyDeleteHm, that's interesting Cassidy. On the institute it also says to find a common word for the two words. I guess since they are both religious relics that could be it?
ReplyDeleteYes Brian I think so!!
ReplyDeleteI cannot figure out number 2. So far I think all of the others do fit in the category of mortality. Also, I can't find the name for this type of "memorial". I read an article online about mortality and "spatial memory" was mentioned in it. So I looked up spatial memory and found that it is a type of memory that is "responsible for recording information about one's environment" so I don't think it's spatial memory.
ReplyDeleteGretchen-The puzzles are in a blog called "Walter Benjamin's Assignment for Preceptor Groups" or something to that effect.
ReplyDeleteFor number 3, I find it interesting about the hair jewelry stuff. I suppose that might make more sense on an overall level than Queen Victoria being buried with a single lock of hair.
As for number 2, I found the same sort of information as Cassidy, but I can't find any reason why the year 1248 would be significant, as that particular date wasn't specifically mentioned in anything I read. Perhaps I'm just not looking in the right spot.
Also, I don't know if this is right at all, but one latin phrase used for memorial is "memento mori" which literally translates to "remember you will die". This phrase (according to wikipedia, so I don't know how reliable this is) is portrayed often in classical and christian art. This includes music, poems, paintings, sculptors, etc.
This is what I think about with the theme of mourning relating to the Winter's Tale- for so many years Leontes spends his time mourning for and remembering his wife Hermione, until finally he is united with his daughter- and seeing this the statue comes back to life.
ReplyDeleteSo I'm a little confused. Is this part of our discussion or are we just asking/answering questions here about the puzzles?
ReplyDeleteFor #3, Gretchen I think you must be right since your answer is pretty much the combination of both Rachel and Shelby's answers. It seems quite reasonable.
and Shelby, wow that's quite a discovery. I looked it up on wiki to do more research and I found that the Catrina painting (4th puzzle) is shown as an example of the memento mori art that's associated with the Mexican tradition of 'Day of the Dead'. That's really interesting because it's one of the given puzzles. We know from the 4th puzzle that Jean Charlot revived Catrina but the original artist, Jose Guadalupe Posada, used skeletons and symbols of death in a lot of his works and played a big role in 'memento mori'.
Are we supposed to be making connections to the winter's tale, or are we just discussing the answers
ReplyDeleteThe last part of of the initial question says "How might you think of these ideas in relation to the Winter's Tale?" So I thought we were supposed to relate it. But I am not sure!
ReplyDeleteHey this is Tess. I tried using a Google account but it said it was unable to process. Anyway, I'm searching for the picture in number 9, Thomas Rowlandson's The Masquerade, but I haven't been able to find it. I did find out that he made a painting called the English Dance of Death in 1815. So number 9 definitely belongs because it relates to Danse Macabre in number 1.
ReplyDeleteNumber 6 is a perfect example of memento mori. The quote, "I am in Arcadia too," is from a painting by Giovanni Francesco Barbieri, called The Flaying of Marsyas by Apollo. It has been interpreted as "Death is even in Arcadia," which is ominous because, arcadia is a term many philosophers use to represent Utopia.
ReplyDeleteOk I have no idea where to find number 3.... I've been looking and have gotten no where! How did everyone find the answer
ReplyDelete#7 Is a vanita which is apparently latin for "emptiness". I thought his painting of the appetizing pie contrast to the morbid skull was bold and ironic. At first I thought it might be signs to a clinically insane artist till I thought about how apathetic socioty is to both of these images and really give neither much of a second thought.... very interesting
ReplyDeleteThis is Kate Tolan.
ReplyDeleteI am confused about number 5 as well. I thought the art exhibit was really though. My theory is that maybe he made this exhibit after his Mom passed away. Maybe he didn't know she was obsessive compulsive and had been hoarding all those items. Maybe the exhibit is a memorial of her after her death.
Also, for #6 I thought "I am in Arcadia, too" was the famous line from the play named Arcadia? Am I wrong?
ReplyDeleteFor #2 i got that it was an effigy of some guy named Jean d'Alluye, a knight and noble of lorie VAlley (some valley in europe) and the year matched p because that was the year he was entombed. I don't know his significance, but it seems to match up
ReplyDeleteAnd for number 5 i found an Artist named Song Dong that made art out of his mother's belongings after she died. There are some pretty cool pictures online from it, she was a massive packrat, and after she died he took every last thing that was crammed into her apartment and made art out of it to memorialize his mother
So there may be posts later tonight, but this is the general summary of what has been said so far, and I didn't include all of them, because i didn't want to jump to conclusions or say something that we didn't really discuss, let me know what you think:
ReplyDeleteThe general theme of all the clues are ways to morn/memorialize the dead. They all have to do with creating a "monument" for them as in number 2 with the effigy of Jean d’Alluye, or taking something that belonged to a dead person, as in the hair of Queen Elizabeth’s husband, or the millions of belongings of Song Dong’s mother and using them to remember the life and the presence of a lost loved one. There were also questions pertaining to things that had nothing to do with specific people who have passed on, but more to do with just remembering the dead and honoring them in general. As in 1, 4, and 7 in particular, they deal with art forms that memorialize the dead, such as a print that represents La Dia de Los Muertos ( day of the dead), number 4, the Spanish day dedicated to remembering the deceased. Or as in number 7, where the painter paints skeletons honoring the dead in a whole new form. All of the puzzles had to do with honoring the dead and helping them live on in memory.
I like everything you wrote Rachel. I think the institute wanted us to recognize the variety of ways in which people are able memorialize the dead, whether it be through a song, a painting, or a creepy lock of hair. Memory can be linked to an infinite amount of different objects!
ReplyDeleteWow I'm so impressed with what you guys have done in this discussion, thanks for being the best group ever!
ReplyDeleteWe are doing something really fun during the whole class period tomorrow so that should be a nice change to the usual Hogle lectures.
Thanks everyone for participating in this, and especially to Rachel for being our scribe! See you all in the morning!
Yeah Rachel, that sounds good. I agree with Ryan in saying that the point of this assignment is to take various forms of art and connect them all to one major theme that relates to memory, in which our case is memorializing the dead. I guess these ideas relate to the Winter's Tale because in the Winter's Tale, there is some sort of underlying theme of the relationship between art and nature (death). I actually looked this up and it made quite sense in saying that the art is represented by Leontes' illusion of his wife having an affair and the nature is the reality which results in Hermione's death. The puzzles all relate to some kind of art form and memorialize a nature of death.
ReplyDeleteWay to dominate today group! We are twitter mas-tuhs. Beyah!
ReplyDeleteHahaha Ryan, you're awesome
ReplyDelete